Indivision MK III: Which LCD monitor?

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Don't Panic. Please wash hands.
  • Hi,


    do you have any hints which kind of LCD monitors are the best ones to display the Amiga video output properly? What is to be considered?


    Thank you.


    Christian

  • Not much in terms of compatibility, as Indivision AGA MK3 can output pretty much any screen mode, making all panel sizes available.


    Since the Amiga is not a wide-screen unit, you might want to look for 4:3 or 5:4 aspect ratio. Further, you can extend your search to "flat screen TV", as the latest update to Indivision AGA MK3 fixes audio output, possibly making other audio equipment on your desk unnecessary.


    The icing on the cake would be 50Hz compatibility, which will give you silky-smooth animation on PAL games. I'll add a specific Eizo monitor to our shop in the next few days that does support 50Hz on it's VGA (not DVI) input, and that monitor even has an audio amp built-in. This unit will be offered including all the required cables for both Amiga and Chameleon. The toughest part will be handling shipping, as the box is quite bulky, making international shipment more expensive. I still need to figure out how to handle this in the shop system...

  • Just added the Eizo monitors to the shop - still not 100% sure if I got all the shipping options right. First time that we're offering such a heavy thing, and Parcel One does not offer good rates for this size and weight of parcel, so only DHL shipping within Europe available for this thing.

  • Just added the Eizo monitors to the shop - still not 100% sure if I got all the shipping options right. First time that we're offering such a heavy thing, and Parcel One does not offer good rates for this size and weight of parcel, so only DHL shipping within Europe available for this thing.

    So how is this monitor with the analogue devices like ECS V2 or TC64 V2? Any ghosting/shadowing?

  • Definitely better than my Samsung.

    Diplomatic answer Jens, so there is still a chance of ghosting / shadowing with this Eizo monitor because we don't know how bad it was on your Samsung.

    I was hoping you would say there was no ghosting.

  • It certainly isn't that crystal-clear crisp picture that some people are expecting here. Maybe Tobias can post a picture of a good contrast with the Chameleon V2.

  • It certainly isn't that crystal-clear crisp picture that some people are expecting here. Maybe Tobias can post a picture of a good contrast with the Chameleon V2.

    I don't think it's so much about if the picture is crystal clear or a little less clear. It's about the ghosting/smearing which puts very noticeable shadow trails on the right side of objects

  • I read somewhere on the forum here that Andromeda's DOS demo would be a good reference point.

    I also suffer from ghosting there, especially with black and white moving images against a blue background.

    Also a picture of the kickstart 3.1.4 screen with the ball and disk drive would have been welcome. There is a lot of ghosting, especially on the right side of the ball.

    If these would have almost disappeared with this monitor, I would like to buy one. :thumbup:

  • Forgot to say the monitor I've now -> iiyama Prolite E1780SD-B1 1280*1024 with VGA cable to the ECS V2

    I don't think the ghosting has anything to do with the monitors/TVs as I've seen it on a wide range of monitors/TVs. Older and newer. Even when using VGA to HDMI converters. All the same. They all show the same. And I've tested two ECS V1s, one ECS V2, two TC64 V2s. They all have ghosting/smearing. I have not tested TC64 V1.


    It may be that certain samsung monitors/monitors with samsung input stage, like Jens says, is even worse than most other screens with regards to showing the ghosting. When I think about it, some years back I tested ECS V1 on CRT PC monitors and think I had the ghosting there aswell.


    Also, like I said in the ECS V2 ghosting thread, you can improve the ghosting a little bit by using a ground wire from the groundplane to the VGA plug. Best results I have when the VGA port is secured in A600s RF shielding in place of the TV modulator. Still ghosting but noticeable improved over having it in A500 with or without groundwire.


    And of course, goes without saying that you should use a known good VGA cable. Bad VGA cables will make the ghosting worse.


    If this Eizo got rid of the ghosting I would be very, very suprised.


    With all that said, I think the sharpness and clarity of the pictures on both ECS V1 and V2 are good. It's the ghost trails that's distracting.


    The problem explained here:

  • I tried several VGA-cables, cheap and professional ones.

    The ground wire from the ECS V2 is now on the RF shield from the A500 (yes, I still have the RF shield mounted) Maybe I can try a second ground wire from the shield to the VGA plug.


    Just let us wait for some pictures now, you'll never know if Jens ans his team have a late Valentine for us. :love:

  • Quote

    Maybe Tobias can post a picture of a good contrast with the Chameleon V2.

    Perhaps someone can suggest a good test picture?


    To me it looks good - but i consider a bit of vertical horizontal blur a desirable effect, as that is just how a C64 looks like, i prefer this over super sharp emulator like pixels :)

  • They all show the same. And I've tested two ECS V1s, one ECS V2

    Here's where we can already stop, as you're showing a bias that doesn't have any technical foundation. Since we're clearly discussing "taste" here, we might as well quit discussing it and have all your postings taken with this grain of salt.


    Also, note that Tobias is not working on Amiga things, so he does not have an A500 with Indivision ECS V2 in his home office (if I remember right). His main work is on Chameleon, so that's the test setup he always has on the desk.

  • Here's where we can already stop, as you're showing a bias that doesn't have any technical foundation. Since we're clearly discussing "taste" here, we might as well quit discussing it and have all your postings taken with this grain of salt.


    Also, note that Tobias is not working on Amiga things, so he does not have an A500 with Indivision ECS V2 in his home office (if I remember right). His main work is on Chameleon, so that's the test setup he always has on the desk.

    You have a thread full of people confirming what I said. And facebook groups telling the same. But take it how you like. I'm just reporting my findings.

    Perhaps someone can suggest a good test picture?


    To me it looks good - but i consider a bit of vertical horizontal blur a desirable effect, as that is just how a C64 looks like, i prefer this over super sharp emulator like pixels :)

    International Karate Sydney level. Or the first level in Badlands. Commodore 64 with S-video on CRTs and LCDs will not show shadowing/ghosting like this unless something is wrong with the setup. RF signal maybe. But who wants RF quality signal? Even back in the day I had a commodore 1802 with Chroma/Luma. And my Amiga had RGB scart. None of them had horizontal blurring. RF signal was considered to be crap even back then. The sharpness and the colours of the TC64 V2 looks good at 640x480 50Hz. It looks much better than any picture connected directly to the C64, but that horizontal smearing is what many people find distracting.

  • You have a thread full of people confirming what I said.

    Not correct. I have a tiny fraction of customers who are complaining, and you in particular are complaining about V1 also having ghosting, which is just not the case. I therefore refuse to discuss this any further with you.

    And facebook groups telling the same.

    "and others say that as well" - same people, different spot, I don't care. I'll make that patch-PCB when I have time, then we can talk again - especially about making it legal (in terms of "pay for yet another EU conformity measurement session").

  • Not correct. I have a tiny fraction of customers who are complaining, and you in particular are complaining about V1 also having ghosting, which is just not the case. I therefore refuse to discuss this any further with you.

    "and others say that as well" - same people, different spot, I don't care. I'll make that patch-PCB when I have time, then we can talk again - especially about making it legal (in terms of "pay for yet another EU conformity measurement session").

    A quick google search of the ECS V1 and there are several reports of ghosting. And this picture from a blog that tested ECS V1. Can clearly see the smearing on the right side of the Amiga logo on the screen. I get the exact same and have been for all the years I owned my two ECS V1s. However, in the A600 when VGA plug is secured to the RF shielding it's much less noticeable. But clearly visible on Blue, green or purple backgrounds like Andromeda's DOS demo.


    With regards to a small fraction of customer base is probably because not everyone register and post stuff in the forums. And many people probably don't care about the ghosting or don't bother to report it.


    With regards to grounding the VGA plug, that was my suggestion in post #130 of the 'Indivision ECS V2 ghosting' thread. And I also stated that it helped. Other people are trying it now and reports it helps. So I'm trying to help here.

  • Quote

    None of them had horizontal blurring

    I have studied C64 image generation and reproduction long enough, and on enough monitors, to say with confidence: Yes, there is some horizontal blur. Always. Inevitable. No matter what monitor, no matter what type of connection. For Y/C in PAL on the C64 it is about one pixel for Y and around 3 pixels for C. It is exactly the reason for why RGB/Scart was introduced - it significantly reduces this blur.


    But we have to be careful with the terminology here - ghosting isnt horizontal blur. Horizontal blur isnt the problem here, ghosting is.



    This is with 1280x1024 at 50Hz (with vic sync). For some reason the colors look really different on this image than they do when i look at the monitor (most notable the dark blue). The smearing on the vertical "bars" on the bridge seems much more apparent on the picture than when i look at the monitor too. No idea why this would be the case, perhaps because everything appears much brighter on the Picture than it does when looking at the monitor.


    Here is another with different camera settings, this looks better (but still not accurate):


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