Posts by turrican9

Quote from frossmant

If not can anyone tell me what values the component have so I can replace it ?

I think most of the staff is on vacation. I think Jens should be back on monday. I would recommend you to wait for him to answer.

I am still not happy with the ghosting from Indivision ECS V2 and TC64 V2. No ghosting if I connect my BenQ BL702As and BL912 monitors directly to Amiga RGB. I know Jens has said that is not a fair comparison due to the monitors then running 15KHz and much lower pixelclock VS ECS V2 at 31KHz. But the TC64 V2 Amiga core and various other cores have the option to turn off the scandoubler and run 15KHz. Which my screens support. I am sure it would be the same for ECS V2 if it could be run in 15KHz (which would be pointless in the first place since it's a scandoubler). There is still ghosting with the scandoubler turned off (15KHz) with the TC64 V2. Retro tink 2x mini connected to C64 via Svideo to HDMI shows none of this ghosting other than the usual artifacts from the VIC II with some slight blur besides some letters or graphics.

Still hoping for patchboards for both ECS V2 and TC64 V2.

Two more. The 50.1575 survived for 10 + coldboots. The 50.3196 survived for 9 coldboots. Then after the 10th coldboot it switched to 640x480 for the ACA 500 screen. But then switched back to 720x576@50Hz as I entered workbench. I'm not expecting these to last for 100 + coldboots. But 10 in a row is pretty good. I don't want or have the time to do 100 coldboots. LOL. Will wear out the power button. LOL

Quote from Tobias

modify back porch and/or sync in the vertical timing, each step there is one line

Oh, any specific value you want me to aim for? You want me closer to 50.2?

Quote from Tobias

now you gotta try what happens if you remove or add another line

What do you mean by adding/removing a line? Where do i do that?

This is the closest I got. I tested 10 + coldboots and it held 720x576@50Hz. A notch lower and it would switch to 1080i the next coldboot. Below 50.2 was a no go. So 50.2384 seems solid on every coldboot

Quote from Tobias

This kind of testing does not really help though. As said before, there is no right or wrong way to do a 720x576 mode, as there is no standard for it. What would help is when you use the timing from the mentioned modeline(s) and tweak it until you get a stable picture in a 720x576 mode at 50.2Hz

Do you need exactly 50.2 or can it be a little bit over or under? Like 5.267 or whatever?

First of all I double checked the 720x576@60Hz with vic II sync ON for the BL912. And yes, it does indeed switch to 832x624@50Hz.

Then I tested my two BL702As. They do exactly the same, as expected. They also do the exact same thing my BL912 does with regards to the 720x576@50Hz and VIC II sync ON setting.

I highly doubt that all 3 monitors are bad.

Quote from Jens

It would mean that the monitor measurement is 20% off. Might be an indicator that something is wrong with that monitor. We have the 702 as well - quite a few of them. The difficulties you're describing are completely new.

Well, I can double check with my two BL702As. This specific test was done with my BL912. From experience the BL702A and BL912 behaves exactly the same with regards to resolutions and pixelclock. I have done alot of tweaking with my ECS V2 on these monitors. But I can double check

Quote from Jens

Is that a typo, or does the monitor really see 50Hz where it's being served 60Hz?

I can double check, but I'm pretty sure. I did make notes as I was testing. Probably because VIC II sync is enabled?

Did some testing.

720x576@50Hz VIC II sync ON = Usually when I switch to this from another resolution the screen will switch to 720x576@50Hz. At coldboot it switches to 640x480@50Hz. And sometimes 1080i. Never goes back to 720x576@50Hz unless I select another resolution and then back again to this resolution. But then same thing on every coldboot, where it defaults to 640x480@50Hz or sometimes 1080i.

720x576@50Hz VIC II sync OFF = So far I have only seen 640x480@50Hz with this one. Even when I select it before coldboot. For every coldboot I see 640x480@50Hz.

720x576@60Hz VIC II sync ON = monitor switches to 832x624@50Hz and will stick to that resolution on the coldboots I tested.

720x576@60Hz VIC II sync OFF = Monitor defaults to 1024x576@60Hz and does not change from my testing thus far.

720x576@72Hz VIC II sync OFF = Monitor defaults to 640x480@72Hz. VIC II sync on did not work for this setting.

Note: As mentioned before, with minimig core and C16 core my BenQ BL702a and BL912 sticks to 720x576@50Hz.

Quote from Jens

Marking as "resolved", as there is nothing new - we're running around in circles.

I believe I get the same problem when I turn off Vic II sync with regards to the new 720x576 profile. At least at 50Hz. But if it's impossible to adjust it due to how your C64 core works then it's not the end of the world. The whole reason I started this discussion was because 720x576@50Hz vsync works stable with other cores on my BenQ monitors. But as you guys are saying, your C64 core works differently due to the VIC II sync thing.

Quote from Jens

I do not doubt that. It's just that they freak out if they don't always get the same number of lines per VBlank. We've tried getting rid of the extra black lines they insert at the bottom when this syncing method is active, but were not successful.

That's the fundamentals that we've tried to bring across with all the extensive postings in this thread. If you didn't get that, then, well, I can't do anything more.

What I did get is that the TC64/TC64 V2 C64 core works differently due to the VIC II syncing part VS other cores and so on. I'm not complaining. 768x576@50Hz and VIC II sync on works just fine on these monitors. Also my 1472 (736) x 576@50Hz Vsync on works perfectly (monitor will stay at 720x576 at coldboot) for the ECS V2 with these monitors. Even the new 720x576@50Hz profile for TC64/TC64 V2 works just fine until I do a coldboot I have to enable another screen resolution then back again to 720x576@50Hz to get these monitors to switch to 720x576@50Hz.

Quote from Jens

That's because Indivision ECS V1 uses an external PLL that is in sync with the Amiga clock. However, that 50Hz mode is not synced to the vertical beam of the Amiga at all, and you still get tearing in some cases. It's just that the pixel clock is lock-stepped, and there is no attempt to synchonize the vertical beams of VGA output and host computer. This is a HUGE difference to a vertically-synced approach.

Try un-ticking the "Vsync" box and you'll find that most of what you're setting in the Indivision ECS V2 tool will be fine for your monitor.

This is a clear sign at the monitor not supporting this output mode. You're tricking it into going to your desired mode by deviating from the pixelclock that allows VSync to work, and when it has caught that, you're going back down to where VSync works. What more do you need to accept that it's "off the edge" with your monitor? The feature description clearly says that not all monitors support V-Syncing and 50Hz. Yours doesn't support it. There's no point in believing it would do anything different if you're trying the same thing over and over again.

BenQ BL702A and BL912 does not support vsync at 50Hz? Of course they do. They work just fine with vsync at 50Hz. Either via ECS V2, TC64 VIC II sync on or directly connected to Amiga RGB.

I experimented with 720x576@50Hz Vsync (not 1472x576) on my Indivision ECS V2. I get the same problem like in the past when I was playing around with this resolution, I get vertical bars which I cannot tweak away with the pixelclock setting or phase on my monitor and the picture will not fill the screen (by fill I mean the overscan areas does not fill the screen) like with my 1472x576@50Hz profile, which also shows a perfect pattern on the test screen with no vertical bars.

I'm quite suprised I cannot replicate the the 50Hz 720x576 mode the ECS V1 is using. In my case the only way I can replicate it with good results on my BenQ BL702As and BL912 is the 1472x576@50Hz option where I divide the 1472 by two. Or options near that resolution. Which gives an even clearer 720x576@50Hz than my ECS V1 in 50Hz mode.

If my less than satisfactory 720x576@50Hz results on my ECS V2 could be interesting for the further development of the TC64/TC64V2 screen mode problem then I will go take pictures of my 720x576@50Hz profile and post here.

With all that said, the 720x576@50Hz for TC64V2 is working really good for me. Problem is it will switch to other resolutions after coldboot. I can replicate that with the ECS V2. Usually the fix is to step the pixelclock a few notches up for the monitor to lock on the desired resolution and not be unreliable in the sense it's sometimes switching to other resolutions like 640x480 or 1080i. Which is what's happening on the TC64 V2 with that particular 720x576@50Hz profile

Another funny thing I noticed. Been experimenting with the minimig core when in cartridge mode. Which is so cool because the real C64 keyboard works with the Amiga core. And the joystick port. But for mouse I need PS2. Really awesome and practical. But in the Amiga core I tweaked the pixel and phaseclocks for my monitor for the best results. When I then tried the 720x576@50Hz mode on the C64 core It switched to the same monitor profile. However, the pixelclock/phase tweaking I did for the Amiga core did not fit the C64 core. lol. Anyway, for now I use the 768x576@50Hz profile for the C64 core. Which I believe switches my BenQs to 1024x576.

Quote from Tobias

You need to create a 720x576 mode *for the monitor*. all the messing around with the scaler is pointless for what we are trying to find out here.

That is out of the question. Horrible results. Instead, look more closely at the C16, minimig core or even the ECS V1 50Hz mode which simply scandoubles the standard 240p/288p singnals. Like robinsonb5 explained

Quote from Tobias

In the first place it matters what the video producing device puts out - what your monitor detects and how it displays something comes second (and might be just wrong, or just match by chance). Hence the question what these 1472 pixels are about. To me it looks like you have basically created a 1440x576 mode, which for some reason your monitor detects at 720x576.

Ah yes, i remember this. And i remember i tried this and it did NOT work with my monitor - showing pretty much the symptoms turrican9 is describing with his now It doesnt seem to be 100% right though - because the C16 core works fine here. Also, we have another "problem" with Chameleon - the 50Hz modes have to be slightly faster than 50Hz (actually faster than 50.125Hz), else the "VIC-Sync" will not work (Thats why all the other 50Hz modes are actually 50.2Hz)

But I divide it in two (look picture). Also, Jens is correct.

Quote from Jens

He's probably running twice the output pixels in order to take advantage of the built-in scaler. The ECS V2 scaler performs much better if the output resolution is high.

If I half the VGA mode to 736 I get really bad results. However, I half 1472 to 736 by using the adjustment in the tool.

Quote from Jens

You are writing about 720x576, yet your screenshot shows 1472 pixel wide screen - showing 736 pixels of the up to 768 pixel wide Amiga-screen. Also, the back porch value is not readable on that screenshot - your mouse pointer covers it.

The talk about 720x576@50Hz is about the resolution the monitor runs at. Which is desired in this case. The Amigas screen may be 768 pixels but 1472/736 will show the exact same overscan area as if I plug the screen directly to my RGB port, TC64 V2 minimig core or ECS V1 50Hz mode. Exact same picture both overscan wise and size wise. And in all cases my monitor switches to 720x576@50Hz appart from the RGB 15KHz it will switch to 576i. If I go much over 736/1472 I cannot make it work anyway. In fact, I don't think I can go over that at all.

Halfing it is a no go with the ecs v2. Bad results. However, 1440 could be doable. It takes very little to upset the clocks.

For reference. My current profile will give the exact same picture aspect ratio wise and size wise as the minimig core for tc64 v2, ecs v1 50hz profile and if i plug my monitors directly to the rgb. So i know i've hit 'the spot'.

Edit: why not use the minimig core as reference? It gives me a stable 720x576@50hz picture that will not switch to other resolutions at coldboot. I believe the c16 core for the tc64 could also be used for reference

Divided by two it's 736. This takes into account the full overscan. If i go just a tiny bit up or down with the pixelclocks then i get the problem that the monitor switches to other resolutions at coldboot. I may manage to change the horizontal to lets say 1470 and keep it stable. I could experiment more if you want