Posts by nuttie

After some more experimentation, here are some pictures I managed to capture of the on-screen flickering in case it helps anyone else.

So on this occasion today, turning off the CCKLine pull up cleared the interference, which is the exact opposite of what normally happens. It didn’t seem to matter whether the PCLK was off, set to pull-up or pull-down... There is no pattern to this I can see other than switch on the Amiga, and when the flickering starts, toggle CCKLine mode from whatever it was to the opposite, and the problem goes away. Is it likely that my Amiga 1200 is just a steaming pile of 30 year old failure? I honestly don't know how you guys mange to design such reliable (and your stuff is very reliable) expansions for these temperamental $*%& machines! I have just one and it’s driving me nuts.

Hiya, thanks for replying, sorry it is a Sunday, please feel free to ignore my nonsense until at least it's a work day, I've only just had time to try this stuff out. I'll try and keep this message a lot shorter!

The HDTVs are all in game mode, and also have as much of their additional extra-processing nonsense switched off as is possible. The audio lag isn't bad at all, and it was the analogue out on the Amiga I was comparing to, so I am not at all worried or surprised that there is a little lag since the audio is getting to the HDTVs via a more complicated route.

The audio in the Turrican games etc. is missing entirely, not just some channels or notes, but the Dune, Frontier, Another World and the non-TFMX LucasArts game audio seemed to maybe be a different issue. It wasn't like it was missing a note or sound effect here or there, it was like channels 3 and 4 were switched off completely, or had the volume turned down to zero but channels 1 and 2 were working fine. This could absolutely be the same thing as the Factor 5 games, it just seemed like different behaviour (I'd expect the audio replay code to send all channels using the same mechanism, so it'd either all work or all fail), so I thought I'd mention it. Fingers crossed it is the same thing though, as then one fix will solve all of them at once.

Whatever is causing the bad pixels, it has only previously seemed to be affected in a positive way when I switched on the CCKLine Pull-up, when I switch that off and try the PCLK in Pull-up mode instead, it doesn't seem to improve or clear the issue. The issue can manifest as just a single pixel but it is usually flickering on part of a line, like 8 or so bytes on a bitplane are being misread, or an entire line (which mostly happens on the DOpus clone of the Workbench screen if that is open. I've also seen part of some icons flicker and change colour, and this isn't line based it's like the palette entry for the particular colour has gone a bit crazy. The CCKLine pull-up definitely improves it whatever it is. Thinking about it, might it be palette and not pixel related? I never see it in a game or at low-res, only on the Workbench/DOpus screens which are set at DBLPAL no flicker at present.

The Lisa IC just says CBM on it, so I'm not sure what version it is but I don't think it's an HP one. I'll attach a picture of the mobo so you can take a look - it's an older picture, before the board was recapped but it is the same board. I guess PCLK is Pixel Clock, and CCLK CPU clock? If it is the CPU clock causing issues, might I need to perform the accelerator fixes to the bottom of the board as are required for some expansion cards to be stable? These have not been done as far as I can tell.

I tried rescanning the EDID modes but I'm still getting just the same three entries coming back as I did previously. Those are...
EDID 1920x1080@60

EDID 1280x720@60

EDID1280x1024@60

I do believe it must be the TVs not doing something correctly but I'm at a bit of a loss as to why, as they don't seem to do it for the other devices I've tried. When I instruct the RasPis or my PC to go into 50Hz mode they seem to do so and to sync up fully without screen tearing. Maybe the TVs are still doing something to compensate for those devices but they shouldn't be as all that stuff is manually disabled in the menus. The scaling in non-DVI mode I am totally at a loss to fix via the TVs menus, there's nothing at all additional that I can see which can be disabled, and the scaling is not present when in DVI mode. Are there still some additional display modes which are not yet listed by the Indivision tool, which might solve this? If I hard config a RaspPi to change it to a 50Hz mode, there are a lot more display modes which the TVs seem happy to switch into but which aren't on the available list in the Indivision Tool yet. Might the RaspPi be looking/using the CEA modes and the Individision looking/using the DMT modes? I don't know a lot about how that works, so please forgive me if I'm talking nonsense.

In case it helps with the cycling of the DVI/audio mode I am seeing, my current accellerator is an ACA1221lc, running (happily) at 40MHz. The cycle order is Pure DVI, no audio -> 48kHz ->44.1kHz -> 96kHz -> 88.2kHz, but I kept expecting the 96kHz to be last and accidentally skipping over it and then having to go around again, which is why I was clicking on it in quick succession... "user error" as Apple would say.

Hope some of this helps, please let me know if I can be of use with further investigations or information.

Hi All,

I've been experimenting with the new audio configuration in the latest release of the Indivision Tool and I found some things which I thought might be helpful to share. Apologies once more for the wall of text, and again none of this is a complaint. I think you will already know most of this but hopefully some of it might be useful info to others or to help for ongoing investigations.

At present the audio works great for me when configured at the 96kHz bitrate on the 4 HDTV's I've tested but at that bitrate only. The sound is not quite identical to the original analogue out but it is very good and very clean as you'd expect from digital – I don’t mind the filtering personally but I know that’s a subjective thing. I think I have noticed a little lag when I run the digital and analogue sound side-by-side but not so much that anything seems out of sync with what's happening on screen.

Sound seem to work fine for me in the Workbench, and in ProTracker, OctaMED and EaglePlayer, regardless of format (I think that’s because EaglePlayer processes all audio through the same pipeline before sending it on to Paula).

I've tried a couple of hundred or so games over the last few days (not exhaustively), and the audio seems to work great for a heck of a lot of them, the list below is the exceptions I found...

As a few other folks have noted, audio does not seem to work for me in any of the Turrican games after the initial Rainbow Arts/Factor 5 splash screen. I get no audio at all in B.C.Kid, , X-Out and Z-Out. Audio in R-Type and Denaris/Katakis seems fine.

Sound doesn’t seem to work for me in Rainbow Islands, Uridium 2, Fire and Ice, or Virocop. I think all were written by Andrew Braybrook/Graftgold so might all have the similar audio routines?

No audio in Xenon, Xenon 2, Cadaver, or Speedball 2 but Speedball, Gods, Magic Pockets, and Chaos Engine all seem fine and have full sound as far as I can tell.

No audio in Shadow of the Beast 1, Beast 3, Brian The Lion, or Puggsy. Audio seems fine in Beast 2, Agony, Awesome, Killing Game Show, Leander (maybe a missing sound effect in title music?), Lemmings, Lemmings 2, Obitus, Ork.

Audio seems to work for me in Rick Dangerous and Switchblade 2 but not in Rick Dangerous 2 or Switchblade.

From what I read in some of the other posts, I think you're already working something to improve compatability which I think will probrably fix most of the above. The next games I found are a bit different in that they have audio but it doesn't seem complete so I guess these might be a slightly different issue...

Dune has audio but only channels 1 and 2 seem to be output, channels 3 and 4 are missing – I played the Dune intro MOD in ProTracker to compare and it’s definitely channels 3 and 4 which are missing, so one from each stereo side.

No audio in Monkey Island 1 (TFMX like Turrican etc.?) but Monkey Island 2 and Indy Jones and The Fate of Atlantis have audio but are again missing notes/sounds – again it sounds to me like they're missing channels but I can’t be sure.

Same with Another World: About half of the audio is missing during the intro, no drums, most sfx missing – I don’t have the mod file for this one so I can’t be certain if it’s whole channels bit it is missing part of the audio for sure. Flashback seems fine, as do Future Wars, and Operation Stealth.

Frontier is another game with partial audio, you can hear it during the intro. Again this sounds like it’s missing a channel on each side.

New Zealand Story’s audio works on the title screen and intro but cuts out when starting a game after the walrus kidnaps the kiwis.

Rocket Ranger also seems to be missing some notes/channels.

The HDTV displays are now very occasionally (maybe after 1-2 hours or so) losing video sync and blinking out, which is something I've not seen since I swapped out my bad HDMI cable. I haven't changed my setup at all since the HDMI cable swap, I’ve only updated the Indivision firmware and Tool, so I think it might be something in the new firmware causing, it may even be the audio and my constantly messing with the settings to try things causing it – it only happens occasionally, once it starts the screen blinking out happens every few seconds for 5-6 times, then subsides but comes back again after a few minutes. Power cycling the Amiga also seems to stop it. I need to investigate this a little more as it hasn't happened since I unplugged the USB network adapter from my RapidRoad earlier today.

I've also noticed a little more pixel noise/errors on the Workbench since the latest update, not at all as bad as it was with the initial firmware but it seems to happen more frequently than it did in 1.4. I think it’s bad reads of the pixels on the Amiga side as they’re too big to be just moise on the output display. They seem more likely to happen if I launch something like DOpus4 which makes a clone of the Workbench screen, and they definitely occur more if I am copying something from the pcmcia slot (using a cf card and adapter).

At the moment I'm running the Workbench in DBLPAL progressive, 64 colours, and the Mk3 is set to scan that at 640x576 50Hz in SHiRes, and scale up to 1920x1080p50. Activating the CCKLine pull up seems to lessen the errors and gets rid of them most of the time, but not all of them, all of the time.

The slight screen zoom when in non-DVI mode, which moves both the Workbench border and the Indivision overlay partly off the screen still appears to be present. It’s not just a translation, it’s definitely being scaled slightly – I don’t know if the HDTVs are doing it due to there being less lines in the picture, or if it’s the Indivision scaling things differently in non-DVI mode. Also, the VSync ripple which happens every 10-12 seconds is still there, in both DVI and non-DVI mode – so something odd is going on with that. It might well be the TVs doing it and not the Indivision but the same thing does not happen when I plug in a Raspberry Pi or my PC’s graphics card into the same HDTV and set those to 50Hz modes. The PC graphics card might be interpolating the frames and smoothing things out but there's no way the Raspberry Pis are doing that, they're not powerful enough. If I try to activate VSync or Auto-Resolution (or both), I lose the picture completely and all TVs report an unsupported resolution.

Additionally, I've noticed that when I cycle through the audio/DVI modes on the Advanced options modal window in quick succession, the Indivision Tool sometimes seems to get itself into a state where it thinks it has already saved/synced changes I’ve made, when it has not. I have to quit out of it and redo them when this happens.

With all that said, I am really enjoying the great digital picture quality and the experimental audio too, so and thank you for all your hard work and efforts. I just hope some of the above is useful information.

Cheers!

Cheers for the info!

Hi All,

I'm thinking about a potential upgrade from an ACA1221lc to an ACA1233n, and am trying to weigh up the likely changes. I wanted to ask a few questions so I can figure out what I'll be gaining, and to see if I might lose out on any features I already have with the ACA1221lc. My ACA1221lc runs happily at 40MHz at the moment, so that's what I'm comparing with.

Obviously the ACA1233n has a lot more memory and a faster CPU but I guess that must mean more power draw - should it still be okay to run it with an Indivision AGA Mk3 and a RapidRoad in the machine at the same time?

I have a new CA-PSU, so I'm hoping that should be fine for the job?

Are there any heat concerns with the 55MHz version, other than the trap door? The case I have is one of the new ones with a vented trap door, should that allow enough air to circulate?

How fast the clockport ACA1233n is compared to the one for the RapidRoad on the ACA1221lc? Am I likely to notice any speed decreases or increases?

Likewise with the IDE, am I likely to notice any changes to the speed or compatability? I currently use a CF card as an HDD - although I'd like to upgrade to something a bit faster if I can find something suitable (no room for an old skool hdd with the Mk3 in place) and an appropriate adapter.

Is the config for the ACA1233n stored in flash, configured during startup, or a bit of both? Are there a bunch of other libraries that need installing to configure the MMU etc.?

Sorry for all of the daft questions, I've tried to read up as much as I can but I didn't fully understand everything, so I thought I'd ask on here.

BTW, thanks for the Mk3 v1.5 update yesterday - I now have crisp 96kHz audio coming out my TV in Workbench and also in most games, superb!

Cheers!

Please may I ask which version of Gloom you found had the Graffiti C2P renderer? Just the version of Gloom that had it, not a link to it or anything. I tried looking for it a while ago to try it on the ECSv2 and couldn't find it anywhere.

Hi All,

I thought I'd give an update in case the information is useful, and I have a couple of questions too so I can try and understand how things are being done, and hopefully then give better information and feedback - please don't think this message is in any way an "I want a pony! Now!" demand, and as with the previous post, apologies in advance for the wall of text…

First off, having changed out the HDMI cable and using the Mk3 for the last couple of days, the display now seems totally stable with no picture dropouts, weird green lines, or blue fuzz in the picture when switching the resolution up to 1080p - so I'm still pretty certain it was just the cable causing the issues at higher bit rates. The picture quality seems perfect in both DVI and non-DVI mode. Apologies for repeating myself but I would honestly say to anyone having similar problems, *check your cables* and don't assume if they work at one resolution, then they're fine and not at fault if you get problems at other resolutions.

The EDID info has also been continuously and correctly detected by the 1.4 config tool over the last few days on all of the HDTVs I’ve tried. As was mentioned previously, I think only a few resolutions are being read/listed by the tool but all resolutions listed work well and produce a stable picture on each of the now 4 different HDTVs I’ve managed to test. As far as I can tell, the resolutions detected seem to be the from DMT monitor compatibility list, and not from the CEA HDTV ones. Is this what you'd expect?

When I switch between DVI and non-DVI mode, the amount of overscan visible on the TV display changes. DVI mode seems to display the maximum viewable area the Amiga is capable of putting a screen into, but in non-DVI mode, the displayed area seems to zoom in slightly losing some of the outside screen margins, and also part of the Mk3 OSD information (Please see attached pictures). In some resolutions this means that games have part of their screen display moved outside the viewable area. There are no obvious ripples in the pixel sizes that I can see, which would indicate a change in sampling of the Amiga's display in either DVI or non-DVI mode. I can’t tell if less lines are being sent from the Mk3 when DVI is off, or if all the TVs are just processing the incoming signal differently but all of the TVs display the same effect in the same way. My testable TV sample size is not at all big enough but the TVs are different models from different years, 3 are Sony, 1 is from Toshiba, 3 have 1080p panels, and 1 is 720p. It's not impossible that they all have the same chipset and firmware and therefore process the signals the 100% identically but I think it is quite unlikely. The internal scalers on all TVs must be scaling and smoothing things, as I don't see any pixel shimmer when scrolling but I think there should be some as the zooming must have changed at least the vertical pixel height.

At the moment, I get no audio at all from any of the TVs but all are displaying the small speaker icons in their on-screen info, which indicates they think that audio is being transmitted/received. None of the TVs is showing any indication an error or HDCP protection, I just don't hear anything at all. I *think* DMT modes are not guaranteed to support audio, so if the EDID list is only listing DMT modes, might this be a reason for audio not working for some folks? If not this, then might it be something to do with the audio bit-rate not being what the TVs are expecting, or is it just likely that evil HDCP is kicking in?

In case extra info helps any, I have several Raspberry Pis I tinker with that have the same issues with DMT modes and audio, (they have a config setting to try to get around the issue). Also, from reading around the subject I don't think Rpi’s do HDCP at all, but their audio always seems to work okay for me in the CEA modes. In addition, I've got a couple of Carby (open source GCVideo) FPGA devices which do a similar job to the Mk3, in scan-doubling and converting GameCube digital video to work on modern TVs. I believe these output video in DVI mode all the time and use a similar hack to the RPi's to get audio to work in that mode (which it does on all the TVs I have). The comments I read whilst browsing the GCVideo source code, it seemed to suggest audio bit-rate was critical to it working but I don't know if any of this is relevant or applicable to the encoder chip on the Mk3.

At present enabling VSync (with the VSync line set to default value 100) or Auto Resolution causes the picture to disappear completely on all of the TVs I have available to test. The TVs report that the signal goes out of range as soon as either are enabled. Changing the Vsync line value does not seem to change this behaviour.

Lastly, when I put the Mk3 into 1080p 50Hz and play a game with scrolling, I can see a screen tear ripple about every 10-12 seconds, and I can also see on the Mk3 OSD that it thinks the Amiga’s screen refresh rate is fluctuating between 50-51Hz. I don’t know if this is normal, so I thought I’d let you know in case it’s relevant to any of the above.

As I said at the start, sorry again for the wall of text, and none of this message is intended as a complaint. I am very, very happy with my Mk3. The picture is great - way, way better than the analogue output, and I am not noticing any additional lag on the screen, so I think whatever there is must be fairly small. 90% of my problems were related to my dodgy HDMI cable, and the other 10% were a config tool issue that was fixed in less than 4 hours on the day I reported it - you can't ask for better service than that.

I hope some of this info is useful to others.

Cheers!

I think I've solved the riddle of the corrupted graphics and blinking screen... and would you believe it was the darned HDMI cable? I tried everything, I re-cleaned the pins on Lisa, I reflowed the joints, I reseated and rechecked the Indivision Mk3 and nothing changed... and then I moved it to a different TV, swapped the HDMI cable and bingo: the problem was gone. I'm not sure if it was a bad conductor in the cable, or just cross talk but it's definitely the cable, and it only manifests at high bit rates and is worse with DVI disabled (does DVI over HDMI have a lower bit rate or more error correction?). I still have no idea why jumping in Turrican 2 made the screen blink but it was definitly the cable doing it.

Note for anyone else reading this who is having problems with image stability, even if it's repeatable and seems like it's software triggered... Check any cables, extensions, and connectors before you start yanking your Amiga apart.

The new 1.4 config tool seems to be picking up the EDID info correctly now. Thanks very much!

Next job: Try and re-flow, re-clean and re-check the Lisa pins (a little bit scary but should be okay...) to see if that improves the mysterious green lines and display blinking in and out...

My apologies, I didn't realise you'd fix the config tool the same day! I'll check it out and post back in a short while...

Cheers, I'll give it a go this evening and post the results.

I tried disconnecting the Gotek/Goex/ completely, both the power and data but it did not seem to change the behaviour in any way. My power supply is based on an 80W Pico-PSU (not a fake one), connected via about 25-30cm of 5-core 1mm² cable and a square DIN plug to the A1200's power connector. I've got an iComp PSU which I pre-ordered in transit to me at the moment (thank you for that btw), so I can try that too once it arrives.

I also tried changing the min & max lines to 310 and 315, and this too did not seem to change the behaviour in any way, whether in DVI mode or not.

Is there anything else that might be worth a shot to help with figure out what's going on?

Awesome, I am glad the information was of use - thanks for letting me know.

My A1200 has an ACA-1221lc, a Goex floppy emulator and a CF2IDE+ in it - my Rapid Road is back with you at the mo for repairs, so that's not connected. My PSU is a Pico-PSU based one but external via the power connector. I can check the voltages and try unplugging things later today, after I finish work, if it's helpful?

I've just tried flipping into DVI mode in 1080p60, and it seems to help on the Workbench screen but not when playing a game - Battle Squadron exhibits the blinking still, and also some intermittant random green horizontal lines. The green lines are much finer than the Amiga's resolution, I think it's the actual 1080p resolution of the panel, so it must be something on the output side doing it. When I drop back to Workbench (640x256@50) it seems fine again.

Still in DVI mode, I tried Turrican 2 next, and it seems way more stable than Battle Squadron. Only 1 blink so far, when starting the game on first jump, when the screen scrolls. Back to Workbench and stable again. Back to Turrican 2, start game, jump - and screen blinks in the same way. Tried this again another 4-5 times and it's repeatable. Power cycle the Amiga, and again it's still repeatable. There might be two separate things here, the blink is definitely repeatable, the green lines seem a little random. Most of the time I can just occasionally see a couple of single pixels on the Turrican 2 title screen that are flickering - on the character and the power-up block, but occasionally there's a a few line glitches that start part way along the screen and lasts until the end of that line, they last maybe 0.5 seconds. Again these green lines are at the panel's pixels resolution, not the Amigas.

Then back to Battle Squadron and it starts blinking and glitching straight away but not on the Workbench screen.

Might some of this be related to the copper/sprites and some craz-ily tight code timings in Battle Squadron multiplexing the heck out of things while in Turrican 2, there's either less going on, or the timings are less critical?

When I switch back to 1024p, all of these problems go away regardless of whether I'm in DVI mode or not.

I hope some of this is useful, please let me know if you need me to try anything else.

Hi All,

I'm having limited success getting my new Indivision AGA Mk3 to work at 1080p on an HDMI tv, and I wondered if anyone else was having more luck? Apologies in advance for the absolute wall of text...

I've tried it with a couple of different Sony HDTVs we have in the house, both seem stable at 1280x1024p60 but not at 1920x1090p60 or 1920x1090p50. I don't think it's the Amiga 1200 as it's stable at the lower resolution but I guess it could be, if increasing the Mk3 output resolution makes the A1200 do more work somehow and get hot/draw more current? I did wonder if it might be the psu making the Mk3 unstable if it is drawing more current when working at higher resolutions but it could just be my timings are out, so I thought I'd ask on the forum and see if anyone else was trying the same things as me.

I used the latest 1.3 tool and firmware from the iComp website to produce the results listed below:

The Mk3 doesn't seem to read/calculate the EDID info 100% correctly, and I guess it could be the TVs giving out the wrong information. When the Mk3 checks the EDID info it adds only 3 modes to the list, but I think the TVs are capable of a lot more because I've seen them do it when connected to PCs, Raspberry Pis and game consoles. It looks (at least to my not-expert eyes) like the Mk3 is getting most of the information correct for the resolutions it lists, but not the back porch setting, and then because of that, the frequencies are wrong which results in no picture. Below is what the Indivision tool returns, I've highlighted the fields I think are incorrect.

EDID 1920x1080@66 (Does not work, causes "unsupported signal, check your device output")

Pixel Clock: 148500000Horizontal Timing: Vertical Timing:
Visible: 1920 Visible: 1080
F. Porch: 88 F. Porch: 5
Sync Len: 44 Sync Len: 5
B. Porch: 0? B. Porch: 0?
Polarity: Pos Polarity: Pos
Freq KHz: 72.3684? Freq Hz: 66.3930?

EDID 1280x720@65 (Does not work, causes "unsupported signal, check your device output")

Pixel Clock: 74250000

Horizontal Timing: Vertical Timing:

Visible: 1280 Visible: 720

F. Porch: 110 F. Porch: 5

Sync Len: 40 Sync Len: 5

B. Porch: 114? B. Porch: 0?

Polarity: Pos Polarity: Pos

Freq KHz: 48.0893? Freq Hz: 65.8758?

EDID 1280x1024@60 (Works fine.)

Pixel Clock: 108000000

Horizontal Timing: Vertical Timing:

Visible: 1280 Visible: 1024

F. Porch: 48 F. Porch: 1

Sync Len: 112 Sync Len: 3

B. Porch: 248             B. Porch: 38

Polarity: Pos Polarity: Pos

Freq KHz: 63.9810 Freq Hz: 60.0197

Further to this, I tried changing the settings for 1080p to the following, which I think should work and which do produce a picture, just not a stable one...

TEST 1920x1080@60 (Works but causes screen to blink out every 5-10 seconds for ~1 second)

Pixel Clock: 148500000

Horizontal Timing: Vertical Timing:
Visible: 1920 Visible: 1080
F. Porch: 88 F. Porch: 5
Sync Len: 44 Sync Len: 5
B. Porch: 148             B. Porch: 35
Polarity: Pos Polarity: Pos
Freq KHz: 67.5000 Freq Hz: 60.0000

TEST 1920x1080@50 (Works but causes screen to blink out every 5-10 seconds for ~1 second)

Pixel Clock: 148500000

Horizontal Timing: Vertical Timing:
Visible: 1920 Visible: 1080
F. Porch: 528 F. Porch: 5

Sync Len: 44 Sync Len: 5
B. Porch: 148             B. Porch: 35
Polarity: Pos Polarity: Pos
Freq KHz: 67.5000 Freq Hz: 60.0000

I believe both of these settings should should work fine on the TVs because they are the exact same settings I can see my PC's graphics card sending to the same TVs when I set it to those modes. I just can't figure out why it's not stable when I get the Mk3 to do it. If anyone has any ideas what I'm doing wrong, please let me know.

The 1024p mode is totally rock solid stable and works great but in order to get the pixels 1-1 I have to set the Mk3 to scale the screen to 640x512 which means I lose the edges of the picture on any games (Battle Squadron, Rainbow Islands etc.) where the Amiga's screen is not left aligned. If I could get either 1080p mode to be stable, I can scale the screen 1-1 with some extra pixels in the margin, to help fix that. Also, I am wondering if using the 50Hz modes on the TVs would help with v-sync and screen tearing? The picture seems tonnes better when the TVs are in game mode, and Mk3 has a clean ratio between input and output resolutions. I've also tried to set up some 576p modes but no luck so far, I get a black screen but no "unsupported signal, check your device output" error message from the TVs, so something is different again with those modes - my reason for trying with those is the lower pixel clock and integer scale for games.

Again, apologies for the wall of text, I just wanted to write down as much as I could in case it was useful to anyone trying to figure out the same things.