AGA MK3 not recognized by config tool

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Don't Panic. Please wash hands.
  • When I try to start config tool I get this error:


    "IndivisionAGAmk3 hardware not found. continue?"


    clicking continue sometimes immediately crashes the tool with usual prompt to suspend/reboot. sometimes it lets me go in and start making changes but then later crashes. likewise I try to flash it with latest core and get "invalid flash signature".


    This is extremely frustrating because while I can get a basic video output, it's not displaying correctly on any of my monitors. so much for alleged EDID capability of MK3. I wish I had stayed with my MK2 now.

  • I just looked at it again to see if there was a connection problem with the socket, and I think that there must be. The socket has an extremely weak grip on the video chip. I've removed it and reinstalled it and it has a pathetic weak feeling to it. Pressed completely flush and level it can be lifted off as easy as turning the page of a book. The socket is looser than a (term deleted - please watch your language!)

  • This sounds like either the Lisa has had some dents on all sides in a "previous life", or you're not pushing down with the required force. Since you cannot see all four sides of the socket when installed, please try to start at the top right, and then push down all the way on the bottom left, holding the top right part in place. In some cases, it takes your whole body weight to hear and feel that reassuring "click", and then it sits so tight on the Lisa chip that you can lift the board on the flicker fixer.


    If the socket would be that loose, it wouldn't have passed our QC - I'm sure you're just too careful.

  • Given the heroic amount of flexing that the motherboard did (seriously some 5mm bend) I extremely doubt that I'm not pushing hard enough. But tommorow I'll remove it, clean everything with iso and try with your recommended technique


    Another issue I'm having is the Graffiti emulation. The demos on the test disk work, but anything else I try to run has legible but scrambled graphics.

    I understand the idea of how graffiti works, so I tested out using the overscan prefs to move screen centering on X axis (keeping standard 320 pix width). By doing this I can make the colours of the scrambled picture change, but there's no position that cures the problem, because it only allows to move in 2pixel increments. Very strange and frustrating.

  • Okay I have cleaned and refitted using all my weight on a flat surface per your advice.


    Graffiti mode problem still there, also I have found that the screenmode detection is severely bugged. When superplus screenmode is selected, indivision goes to "pre 800x600 pal" instead of "pre 800x600 superplus". Sometimes, PAL 640x512 screenmode makes indivision switch to it too, but sometimes not.


    It also gives a message in the config program that's so amazingly confusing I want to know which person at iComp is responsible for writing it:


    "Is live, but wouldn't be applied".


    It's maddening. I have never, in all my life got a message from a computer program like that. When I saw it I had to get up from the chair and have a walk outside in the cold air. "Is live, but wouldn't be applied."


    Is live, but wouldn't be applied.


    It's like saying "Your house is on fire, but it is not flammable"


    "You are dead, but you are immortal"


    And you know the worst part is I fully understand it! According to it's configuration, the mode should not be applied in the current situation, but it has anyway somehow. And no way to do anything about it.


    May we please have the old config tool from the MK2 back? You had to actually know how monitors worked with that thing but at least it actually worked. This new one is like you made it wrong on purpose as a joke.

  • Graffiti mode problem still there,

    If the demos from the Graffiti disk work and the center-x-position of the overscan settings is a multiple of 8, it must work. The problem may be that you're just setting the wrong overscan - PAL instead of NTSC? Some software even ignores the overscan settings and does it's own thing. You might want to contact the author.


    I have found that the screenmode detection is severely bugged.

    You're attempting to use a screen mode (Super Plus) that is not (yet) in the defaults. Also, it seems like you didn't take the time to read the documentation yet. Screen mode detection is something that you configure using the tool, based on criteria like number of lines and presence of Hires/SHires pixels. If you believe it's "bugged", then you have selected the wrong criteria to make a distinct difference between screen modes. Granted, SuperPlus is not in the list of known screen modes yet, but that doesn't mean that it's "bugged" - it's just that nobody has entered the correct criteria yet.


    Chapter 4 of the documentation describes how a screen mode would be recognized - and that will also explain a message like "is live, but wouldn't be applied": Is live, because that's what in the saved configuration of the flicker fixer. With the config you are currently editing, a different screen mode would be selected. So the message clearly describes the difference between saved config and config you are currently editing - nothing more and nothing less.


    This new one is like you made it wrong on purpose as a joke.

    I'm sorry, but this sentence merely shows that you didn't even bother attempting to understand the documentation. It may not be intuitive, and it may take an additional 15 minutes to wrap your head around it, but the complexity of this topic can't be put into a simpler tool. The part you obviously like about the MK2 tool - it's very technical approach - is still there, and even a bit more complex due to the configurability of the screen mode detector. The MK2 had that fixed, and for example couldn't make a difference between Lores, Hires and SHires screens. This new screen mode detector is fully programmable, letting you choose different output modes for a PAL-Lores (typical gaming output) and Pal-Hires/SHires screen (typical WB screen). The MK2 version could not do that.


    I want to know which person at iComp is responsible for writing it:

    Timm is the author of the tool. And before you judge him for making a tool that you didn't understand on the first try, I suggest to read the documentation. Unless you come up with a clear description of what might be wrong, I have to assume that you just didn't read it. Please understand that reading the documentation to you can't be part of normal product support.

  • If the demos from the Graffiti disk work and the center-x-position of the overscan settings is a multiple of 8, it must work. The problem may be that you're just setting the wrong overscan - PAL instead of NTSC? Some software even ignores the overscan settings and does it's own thing. You might want to contact the author.

    As I already said to you, adjusting overscan doesn't solve the problem, because the overscan prefs of AmigaOS only allows horizontal movements in increments of 2 pixels. position from 72, move to 74, move to 76, move to 78 etc. In the default overscan settings, the graffiti image is Almost Correct, and any one of those 2 pixel increments that are possible for the user to make, makes it worse. So Graffiti is having an off by 1 error.


    This isn't a problem with 1 program, this is a problem with every software except from the demo disc. DoomAttack, Nemac IV, Gloom, etc. It is important to note that all these programs work correct on original Graffiti cartridge from way back when.

    Now your ancient demos work but nothing else, I'm willing to guess that the Graffiti emulation is implemented correctly according to ancient spec sheet. But the real life behavior of this Graffiti emulation is observably different and not working with software that expects the real life behavior of the original cartridge from the 1990s, which is all of the software.


    You're attempting to use a screen mode (Super Plus) that is not (yet) in the defaults. Also, it seems like you didn't take the time to read the documentation yet. Screen mode detection is something that you configure using the tool, based on criteria like number of lines and presence of Hires/SHires pixels. If you believe it's "bugged", then you have selected the wrong criteria to make a distinct difference between screen modes. Granted, SuperPlus is not in the list of known screen modes yet, but that doesn't mean that it's "bugged" - it's just that nobody has entered the correct criteria yet.

    That's not true, it's in the defaults, "Pre 800x600 Superplus".


    You even included it in your screenshots on wiki:

    http://wiki.icomp.de/wiki/File:Iaga3-pickedid.png


    As I dig through that preset, I see that everything is correct for it except number of lines, which is set not enough. So superplus is there, but doesn't work because of a typo, that is called a bug.



    Timm is the author of the tool. And before you judge him for making a tool that you didn't understand on the first try, I suggest to read the documentation. Unless you come up with a clear description of what might be wrong, I have to assume that you just didn't read it. Please understand that reading the documentation to you can't be part of normal product support.


    Please understand that telling a customer fibs about if superplus is included or not is also not part of normal product support.


    Timm, if you read this, please know that "Is live, but wouldn't be applied" is an insane status message. The config program should never just shrug it's shoulders to the user and say "according to the configuration, this mode should not be the one active right now, but it is anyway". Why is that even a possible situation that can occur?


    The old MK2 has a reputation for having a high learning curve. But this situation of being stuck in the wrong mode, never happened.


    What is also insane is it's possible sometimes to click "Find live mode" and get a dialog box telling you that there is no config matching the live mode. How is that happening? How does the indivision find itself outputting video but not in any of it's configured video modes?

  • Timm, if you read this, please know that "Is live, but wouldn't be applied" is an insane status message. The config program should never just shrug it's shoulders to the user and say "according to the configuration, this mode should not be the one active right now, but it is anyway". Why is that even a possible situation that can occur?

    I can see one scenario where that could happen, with the live edit mode you can select a different compatible mode by pressing 'X'. So in that case the current mode that is live doesn't have to be the mode that would be selected by the software.


    Other scenario is editing the configuration in the tool and changing Min and Max Lines for a mode that is current live. After the edit it will not be the one that would be picked, but it is still active currently and you could end up with that same message.


    Not suggesting that is what happened in your case, just to chime in this is a valid situation that the config tool should be able handle (and does even if the message seems a little weird).

  • That's not true, it's in the defaults, "Pre 800x600 Superplus".


    You even included it in your screenshots on wiki:

    http://wiki.icomp.de/wiki/File:Iaga3-pickedid.png

    You're confusing input screen mode and VGA output settings. Once again, please read the documentation.


    As I already said to you, adjusting overscan doesn't solve the problem, because the overscan prefs of AmigaOS only allows horizontal movements in increments of 2 pixels. position from 72, move to 74, move to 76, move to 78 etc.

    Shouldn't be a problem, as 8 is a multiple of 2, so setting a multiple of 8 is possible. 64, 72, 80 - that should all work. However, I do admit that we only test with the demo disk here, and to my knowledge, none of those demos use a SHires source-screen for Hires output (it's been 24 years since I developed the Graffiti, and I can't remember all details about the demos on the disk). While transferring the colour palette is always done with a Hires source-screen, the graphics data can also be transported using a SHires screen. There are multiple possibilities for error here, as being one SHires pixel off would result in all standard Hires-demos to work fine.


    However, it is also very well possible that SHires triggers a different output screen mode to be chosen, where Graffiti isn't enabled. You can verify that by keeping the OSD always-on - just snap a picture of what you see, then we all have the same data to work with.


    Timm, if you read this, please know that "Is live, but wouldn't be applied" is an insane status message.

    doggggg, if you read this, please step back and think twice if you want to insult/upset my employees and/or me, or if you accept to take the time to actually read and attempt to understand what I wrote, and what Peter repeated in different words with even more possible explanations.


    This is my second warning, and there won't be a third - stay constructive, or send the hardware back for a refund. I have no intention to waste my time on someone who believes who knows it all better, but repeatedly demonstrates that he didn't understand the whole documentation yet.


    Please mention your warranty ID, snap a picture of the "bad" Graffiti output (with OSD on, please) and show a path to reproducing the problem, upload your problematic config here, then we have a basis to work with.

  • Timm, if you read this, please know that "Is live, but wouldn't be applied" is an insane status message. The config program should never just shrug it's shoulders to the user and say "according to the configuration, this mode should not be the one active right now, but it is anyway". Why is that even a possible situation that can occur?


    The old MK2 has a reputation for having a high learning curve. But this situation of being stuck in the wrong mode, never happened.


    What is also insane is it's possible sometimes to click "Find live mode" and get a dialog box telling you that there is no config matching the live mode. How is that happening? How does the indivision find itself outputting video but not in any of it's configured video modes?

    While you edit the configuration, the settings are not automatically synchronized with the configuration on the device and in live registers. "Is live, but wouldn't be applied" just means that you have changed the configuration in a way that the current mode wouldn't be selected again when you'd save the configuration to the device and/or apply the configuration now. If you click "Apply" in this situation, a different mode will be used, and the message goes away. Select "Last Saved", and it should go away too. Both actions synchronize the configuration being edited with the configuration on the device and in live registers. Same with "Find live mode": It is possible that you change the configuration so that no mode currently matches the mode selection criteria. The most obvious reason for this to occur are changes in modes being enabled/disabled.

    I have settled for this philosophy, and I have no plans to change it at this point.

  • You're confusing input screen mode and VGA output settings. Once again, please read the documentation.


    No I'm not, because VGA output settings has nothing to do with the problem. Your documentation refers to the list of presets on the right as "Indivision modes", and they are all named after the Amiga screenmodes they correspond to. The one of them is a preset named after superplus.

    These "Indivision mode" presets as you know, have the settings for both detection of an Amiga screenmode, and which of the VGA modes it should be matched to.


    The superplus one is correctly configured in every way except for the number of lines being 10 too low. Make the number higher by 10, and it suddenly works perfectly.


    You said that superplus is "not (yet) in the defaults", but it is undeniably there in the default list of modes, only with the line detection being misconfigured. It's unfortunate, but there's no reason for you to DENY DENY DENY when it's just a matter of changing one number slightly in the next patch.

    Shouldn't be a problem, as 8 is a multiple of 2, so setting a multiple of 8 is possible. 64, 72, 80 - that should all work. However, I do admit that we only test with the demo disk here, and to my knowledge, none of those demos use a SHires source-screen for Hires output (it's been 24 years since I developed the Graffiti, and I can't remember all details about the demos on the disk). While transferring the colour palette is always done with a Hires source-screen, the graphics data can also be transported using a SHires screen. There are multiple possibilities for error here, as being one SHires pixel off would result in all standard Hires-demos to work fine.


    However, it is also very well possible that SHires triggers a different output screen mode to be chosen, where Graffiti isn't enabled. You can verify that by keeping the OSD always-on - just snap a picture of what you see, then we all have the same data to work with.

    No problem to take some pictures, but my phone's is useless indoors so it'll be a couple of hours while I charge the battery for my good camera.


    doggggg, if you read this, please step back and think twice if you want to insult/upset my employees and/or me, or if you accept to take the time to actually read and attempt to understand what I wrote, and what Peter repeated in different words with even more possible explanations. This is my second warning, and there won't be a third - stay constructive, or send the hardware back for a refund. I have no intention to waste my time on someone who believes who knows it all better, but repeatedly demonstrates that he didn't understand the whole documentation yet.


    Jens, I haven't insulted you or any of your staff. I've described an error message in the configprogram as "Insane" sounding, because it is. I showed it to someone and we were so confused and laughing about it. That's not any kind of commentary of judgement of the person who made it. Simply I wanted to say to the person who did it, "Hey, this is weird and user hostile, what's going on?"


    Now I'm going to say the next part in a way that is hopefully as gentle as I can make it to you, but also to be completely honest.


    Jens, you have a very bad reputation in the Amiga scene for being excessively rude and insulting, unable to handle criticism, making unfounded remarks about people and other products, and prone to melodramatic behavior.


    It was not so long ago that you were involving yourself in meaningless IP disputes and threatening to close your business if the "wrong" people won. You did that thing where you "boycotted" a meet and asked for people to wear black mourning clothes to show support of your cause.


    Even in this thread, when you were mistaken about SuperPlus being an included config or not, you react to being wrong about a small detail by calling me a "know it all", a "waste of time", accusing me of not reading documentation (when the documentation is not even relevant in the case of superplus) etc.


    If you are so smart and secure in yourself, why not start acting like it? Even Linus Torvalds had to eventually, and he's a much bigger fish than you.

  • Jens

    Closed the thread.