Scanlines and PAL mode

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Don't Panic. Please wash hands.

    Hi,


    I have upgraded a TC64 to the latest available BETA and found that PAL mode is now exhibiting a highly saturated blue that does not compare well to the C64 I have next firing a PVM Y/C monitor. Previous cores looked right and NTSC mode still looks right. Is there a possibility to revert these PAL color settings ? could this be selectable in the menu in a future core ? I am forced now to use NTSC as the Basic Editor is too agressive to the eye now.


    On the other hand I wanted to report some missbehaviour in the scanlines. % of scanline does not behave as expected and creates color artifacts that I had not seen before in other scanline generators. A couple of examples:


    As you can see in the Scanline25 file the blank scanlines are properly generated. However they are 100% pure black, nothing to do with 25%.


    In the scanline75 file the blanked lines are replaced by a visible video line that only repeats certain colors not the entire line producing color artifacts and an unpleasing blurry image. AFAIK this intermediate scanlines should be either pure black (as they woulb be in the real thing) or a "softer" doubled line. However something is not right as only some color pixels are being doubled.


    For the rest I consider the TC64 a magnificient machine. I could not find a single bug in the C64 software/games/demos I typically run, it is just unbelievable. For a future version I would like to have more choices on I/O like USB inputs and HDMI but also RGBS video outputs. More felixibility in the other cores management would be great too.


    regards,



    Ruben

    The colors have been changed due to popular demand. I know the old ones are exactly how it looks on a Sony PVM - however, its not how they looked on (most) consumer TV, which is what most people expect. Unfortunately we cant make them selectable on the chameleon right now.


    As for the scanlines, its about as good as it can get with the chameleon. The problem here is that the VGA channels are 5bit, and scaling down the darker colors will simply result in black.

    Hi Tobias,


    What impact does have then selecting NTSC to reproduce original PAL content? I see no change in the border shape. Usually NTSC C64 would look taller with less margin on the vertical borders. In TC64 it looks the same. Is there a speed difference? I am running PAL content under the NTSC VIC option flawlessly.


    I am not in favor of that dramatic color saturation. I dont know, maybe I always had good TV sets ;-) VICE has a CRT filter option that adds artifacts and blurryness to assimilate TV, such degradation is very subjective and IMO be left and an option or not be applied in favor of the true thing. Anyway there is NTSC to get the real colors.


    regards,



    Ruben

    Hi again Tobias,


    If color palette for PAL cannot be configured in the menu my opinion is 2 core versions should be released and then see what popular demand really says. Owning this marvel of TC64 you did + a top of the line SVGA Eizo CRT monitor should provide me a pure and refined video experience (like the U64). Currently it just looks like a bad TV from the 80's with the color settings way off... unless I use NTSC, which looks really good but has those limitations. My 2c.


    regards,



    Ruben

    older cores had the same less saturated palette, and there were a lot of complaints about it. and generally the new palette was considered an improvement. so we already know what popular demand is/was :)

    That doesnt work - you cant change the core binary like that (the FPGA will no more accept it if you change a single bit). And of course the entire process of building the core binary (and calculating the checksums) is proprietary...

    Quote from Tobias

    older cores had the same less saturated palette, and there were a lot of complaints about it. and generally the new palette was considered an improvement. so we already know what popular demand is/was :)

    You must refer to yourself. It's the only "popolo" who has expressed likeness on the saturated colors. If you like them so much you can apply them to the NTSC settings, AFAIK a bad TV was equally bad in Europe than in the US, so why that difference of palette between the two video formats. Force future FW upgrades to the color palettes you like, then I will have no other option than selling the cart. Thanks.

    If it wasnt popular demand, the palette wouldnt have been changed. I don't care myself, i am not even using the VGA output. That said, the output on VGA looks a lot closer to the output of my real C64 using a 1701 commodore monitor after the change than it did before. And as soon as pepto provides proper NTSC colors on his colodore page, i will change the NTSC colors too (and yes, they are different).


    The discussions about the C64 color palette are ongoing in circles since at least 20 years. Some like this palette, some like another. A lot don't understand that "the" correct palette does not exist (there are infinite correct ones). And a lot keep insisting that their personal preferred one is the right one and all other are terrible. At the end, just like in the old days with a real C64, you'll have to live with what the device puts out, and adjust it to your liking at the monitor.

    Like everyone i am not using all features of the Chameleon. If you think that explains anything, so be it. I dont think it has a considerable impact however, since for example all other developers - including the one making the FPGA core - use VGA almost exclusively. Unlike what some loud minority keeps repeating, we dont see a lot of people complaining either (as said before, in fact we did see it - until we changed the colors).


    see post #11

    Please stick to factual wording and read each other's posts, don't go around in circles. Ruben, there is a technical difference between PAL and NTSC colours, hence the difference in colours of the two Chameleon modes.


    We are aware that a selectable colour palette is the only way to silence all complaints. However, there are more important things to fix than things that are clearly a matter of taste, so the priorities are clear here.

  • The last reply was more than 365 days ago, this thread is most likely obsolete. It is recommended to create a new thread instead.

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