Stereo request feature + VIC side question

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Don't Panic. Please wash hands.
  • Hi

    Got this idea for stereo SID option. I've experimented a little with stereo on the Reloaded MK2. I'd like to run all time stereo on it but at least that would require some home made cables with switches as naturally I'd like mono for stuff that doesn't support stereo. It is not easy switching between the two modes on the MKII.
    The idea is that just like switching between the two SIDs (or replacements) it really should be as easy to switch between different modes.
    So my suggestion is a little rework on the stereo/mono configurations.
    1. Mono mode as the way it is now, toggle between them long pressing restore (as the way it is default).
    2. Stereo mode where you can set what is default but still cycle through: Mono SID1 (1 blink), Mono SID2 (2 blinks), 2 SID mono (1 each channel, 3 blinks) and finally stereo (4 blinks).

    Mode 1 is useful for comparing two SIDs. Mode 2 for when you really want stereo but also easily revert to mono for all that stuff that isn't stereo - and that is by far the most material. All without having to connect to the serial interface and without wearing it's flash just to toggle as the cycle is just for the power on period (like it is now) and will revert to whatever you chose default should be on power on.

    The side question:
    I have a late 1992 8565r2 VIC chip which seems to be reqognized wrong as a 6569. Another 1988 8565r2 is recognized correctly. For everything I can find they both work fine and the one that is recognized wrong still get correct voltages and output seems fine as well (there's a small difference in output levels between 65xx and 85xx VIC, hence for modulator replacements you have to configure which is it or image will be too dark or too bright). So I'm curious - why could it be?

    Thanks

  • It is not easy switching between the two modes on the MKII.

    Please read the manual; I think that using a "long press on Restore" is a very easy way.



    I have a late 1992 8565r2 VIC chip which seems to be reqognized wrong as a 6569.

    You're the second person reporting something like this in a few days. Makes me curious - can you send the chip to us for evaluation?

  • Please read the manual; I think that using a "long press on Restore" is a very easy way.

    If possible I can't figure out how it should be possible to switch between mono and stereo modes just using the restore key.
    Hence I'm asking/suggesting here. It would be an extremely useful feature(!)

    You're the second person reporting something like this in a few days. Makes me curious - can you send the chip to us for evaluation?

    Shipping outside Denmark is a bit expensive but I guess it can be arranged.

    I remembered wrong though. It's a 1991 chip but believe that doesn't matter.

    Here's info for right chip:

    VIC-II: 8565 (5F 00 AF55 PAL)

    SID 1 : 8580 (DD 00)

    SID 2 : Unknown (5C 5D)

    CPU : PHI2 OK (0453)

    MCU : 20180227


    And for the chip detected wrong (but as said voltages still right for a 8565, no error reporting)

    VIC-II: 6569 (59 55 AF55 PAL)

    SID 1 : 8580 (DD 00)

    SID 2 : Unknown (5C 5D)

    CPU : PHI2 OK (0458)

    MCU : 20180227


    (In in both cases in SID 2 there's an ARMSID)


    Image of the two VICs. The top one is reported right. Bottom one reported wrong.

  • Does that mean this is a 8565 chip that requires 12V?


    Jens

    I'm very sorry for messing up the measuring. Was only measuring VSS. It seems the VIC chip that reports wrong does indeed get 12v (11,9) on VDD and 5v (4,7) on VSS - ouch(!)
    That explains why it runs a bit hot - but it still survives(!) Has been used many hours(!)

    I got an adapter that allows use of a 85xx VIC in a longboard as essentially what is does it re-route the 5v to VDD and nothing else (you need to be aware of modulator replacement configuration though). Bought it for a SixtyClone (250466 as that board can't be modified without cutting traces like 250407 which only requires reversible modifications) but not used at the moment. For the fun of it I tried in the MK2.

    Everything still works as expected with one difference. It runs noticeably cooler!
    Reporting is still wrong but may be a because of the adapter. Video output seems still fine though - not too dark or too bright.

    VIC-II: 6569 (59 5A AF55 PAL)

    SID 1 : 8580 (DC 00)

    SID 2 : Unknown (5B 5D)

    CPU : PHI2 OK (0456)

    MCU : 20180227

    Only thing.. There's not enough room for the adapter in the C-style case for it :/

  • I really believe it got issues auto detecting 85xx VIC chips.

    I got another 8565R2 which I thought was defective. I've been quite mad at the seller as it was supposed to be a NOS chip (it sure looks very prestine) but has all sorts of issues in the RMK2 with glitchy greyinsh graphics.
    For the fun of it I tried that VIC in the adapter so it it guaranteed to get 5v on VDD. Guess what it seems it works absolutely fine(!)


    So far the picture is

    • MOS 8565R2 datecode 4288 ("another number" 22, Hong Kong) - works and detects fine
    • CSG 8565R2 datecode 3591 ("another number" 22, Philipines) - works but gets 12v, runs hot and detected wrong. So far has run many hours on VDD 12v (ouch!)
    • CSG 8565R2 datecode 4793 ("another number" 22, Philipines) - glitchy but has run some minutes on 12v at it seemed to get better when it gets warm (ouch!). In the adapter ensuring 5v on VDD it works very well. Has so far run for like 15 minuttes without issues in the adapter.
    • I've tried a few 6569 as well. They all detects and fine but of course runs hotter than (rightly detected) 8565 and really require a heatwink which there isn't much room for in a C case.

    So so far two of three 8565 seems detected wrong. The one detected right I got from a defective board. Those which detects wrong is supposed NOS and bought with the intent to use in RMK2.
    I do have another 3 or so 8565 which I've not tested but I don't think I dare to (at least without the adapter) as they're in perfectly working nice original condition machines.

    Edit:
    With VCC and VDD I mean pin 13 and 40 respectively

  • Those which detects wrong is supposed NOS and bought with the intent to use in RMK2.

    These may be from a batch that behaves different from anything that we've used during development (and we used A LOT of different chips). Those supposedly-NOS chips that still arise from "somewhere" may actually be rejects that somehow made it into the wild after the Commodore/CSG bankrupcy.


    Are you coming to Revision? If so, you could bring one of the chips that I either buy from you, or trade for one that we know is detected fine.


    Jens

  • These may be from a batch that behaves different from anything that we've used during development (and we used A LOT of different chips). Those supposedly-NOS chips that still arise from "somewhere" may actually be rejects that somehow made it into the wild after the Commodore/CSG bankrupcy.


    Are you coming to Revision? If so, you could bring one of the chips that I either buy from you, or trade for one that we know is detected fine.


    Jens

    Granted I don't know the history of them. Other than they really look very nice except for the few marks put on by me by putting them into sockets and extracting them (have a fancy IC extractor from a China site).

    I'm not sure what you mean by Revision. But we sure can have a deal. Have checked shipping to Germany and if tracked by GLS is fine with you then it's relatively reasonable so fine with me. Do you like one or both chips?

    Do we settle the practical details by email?

  • Other than they really look very nice

    There are whole companies in China that "re-shine" old chips. A huge load of CIA chips came from one of them, and I wouldn't be surprised if this batch of chips also went through such a facility.


    I'm not sure what you mean by Revision.

    It's a demoscene party. In fact, *the* European demoscene event - I wouldn't know if there is any other of the size and impact. https://2023.revision-party.net/


    Do we settle the practical details by email?

    Sure, just click on "reply" on one of the shop eMails, that will end up in my inbox.


    Jens

  • Hi Jens

    Back in April I shipped you two 8565R2 chips for you to investigate why they detect as 65. For a long time you didn't have the time to measure them. The chips where datecoded "3591 22" and "4793 22". I also shipped a homemade adapter which routes 5v to both VSS and VDD. Have you had the time to measure them?

  • We're on this right now, and yes, both your chips are here. I have even found a unit in my collection that lets me reproduce the mis-detection, so I can ship these chips back if you like. Next few hours are reserved for finding a solution.


    Jens

  • Firmware update tool now updated with the November 1st, 2023 version. Mis-detection of this specific VIC type is solved.


    http://wiki.icomp.de/wiki/C64_reloaded_mk2#Firmware_updates


    Please note that this tool is compiled in a new environment - the compiler did get a few updates in the past years. It's likely that this build only works on 64-bit Windows machines, but not on 32-bit. If anyone has the time and machine(s) to test, that would be great.


    Jens

  • Got my MK2 updated. Went without issues (Windows 11).

    So far it seems to work very well with the 8565's I give it - though I don't think I had any other trouble some other than the two I sent you for testing.
    Video with 8565 (lent from an old working machine) looks very good. Like colors are now more saturated - looks stunning. If nothing else worth the upgrade alone for that - if using 8565.


    On the other hand the one 6569R3 I have that is easy to try (the other one I have I need to desolder shield) doesn't look so good. Colors are too bright and washed out. The hair separation on BoulderDash II looks like it is one pixel wide but should be two.
    It's the same on both DIN and S-video output. S-video fix or not doesn't matter (for color/brightness but it looks better with the fix, less noise, using computer monitor and RetroScaler 2x). That same 6569R3 in its original unmodified 250425 board (a single ram chip replaced as it was faulty, but hardly a modification) is a tad brighter than the 8565 in MK2 but nowhere near as bright as 6569R3 in MK2. And the hairline on BoulderDash II is here clearly 2 pixels wide like it should be.

    It detects all chips right according to chipset info. Here's what it says for the 6569R3

    VIC-II: 6569 (31 31 08D7 AF61 PAL)

    SID 1 : 8580 (DC 00)

    SID 2 : Unknown (12 00)

    CPU : PHI2 OK (045B)

    MCU : 20231101

    READY (press key for menu)


    So clearly better if you're using 8569 but not 6569. On the other hand 8569 is IMHO the one to use in this board - if nothing else then because it warms significantly less. But curious none the less. Wonder what mechanism lies behind the output level shifting required as 65xx and 85xx VIC has slightly different output levels - and why it has changed with update.

    Thank you for looking into the issue.

    I'll send you an email to get my "out of spec" VIC-II's back. Will be nice to use them in the MK2 and let the one in there go back to its original machine.

    Thanks :)

  • Hi Jens

    Today a few minuttes ago I made an order for a black case and a few other items. If you could plase ship my VIC-II's back with that shipment it'll be really great.

    I've tried to email you a number of times but unfortunately didn't hear anything.


    Merry Christmas

    Best Regards,

    M. Th.

  • Too much staff on sick leave - a lot of work is left "not done" in the past months. I've put a note into the shop back end and will make sure that these chips are in.


    Jens

  • Too much staff on sick leave - a lot of work is left "not done" in the past months. I've put a note into the shop back end and will make sure that these chips are in.


    Jens

    Hi Jens


    Sorry about your staff. Everybody is sick these days - I've been down a week myself. But no panick - it's only a a christmas gift for myself (the only one I'm buying "christmas" gifts for since stepping out of the gift race). So a little delay is no issue 😊

    Have a nice Christmas 🎄