Indivision ECS with ZZ9000

I'm using the Indivision ECS modules in my A500's, and one of my A500's is getting a ZZ9000.
I've ordered the Denise interposer board for the ZZ9000, however 'it seems' like MNT has not really anticipated or planned for co-operation with an Indivision ECS.

I'm considering a couple options:
- I remove the vertical IDC connector from the MNT interposer board, replace it with a right angle connector, then add a 48pin IC socket to increase clearance, before seating the Indivision ECS.

- I remove the vertical pins from the Indivision board and replace them with pass-through socket pins, so the MNT interposer can be placed on top of the Indivision ECS.

Any other options I should consider ?
Anyone else already done this, maybe I'm completely wrong, just going my photos ?
Any factory mods I can simply pay an up-charge for in a new Indivision ECS purchase ?

Thank you,

Thank you,

I'll pose the same question to MNT Research as well and see what they say...
It looks like they are only picking up a few signals (~10) from the Denise Chip..

They or I could very easily move the IEC connector to the Vidot side and everything would work without messing around with the stack.

If they have any ideas, I'll share them back here.

Quote from Jens

Not sure if this makes sense,

Curious, where was your thought process was going ?

I've had a few questions about why I'd use an Indivision ECS with a ZZ9000.

The truth is that the Indivision ECS is about the same price as a Super Denise chip and I expect, will last decades longer than I need

So, if I use the VGA out or not, matters not to me...

The Indivision ECS is just my "re-SuperDenise".

Perhaps you were going in a completely different direction though.

I only have V2's from you

Taking with the MNT Research people on their forum...

Their first question:

Quote

"do you really need the Indivision ECS if you have a ZZ9000? And if yes, what for"

It feels like the Indivision ECS 'V2' is badly marketed, everyone just assumes it's a scan doubler flicker fixer,

and not 'the thing' that replaces old and dying Super Denise chips.

I've got ... associates ... that have gone silly buying Raspberry PI RGB<>HDMI things and they are so proud of the fact that it's open source and cheap, despite it costing them $50 CDN or more. And they say silly things like "why would I buy an Indivision, when it costs twice as much ?". I ask them how much they got back when they sold their Denise or Super Denise chip .... and then I get a strange look ... as they realize they bought a thing that runs hot, was never designed to last, has no guarantee of compatible replacement parts, as future PI models may have completely different GPIO abilities, and they are still dependant on a 35 year chip that is rapidly getting to the point that it's as expensive as the Indivision ECS 'V2'.

Anyway... I see MNT Research have fallen into that same thinking trap...
Off I go to educate ...

There is a cute little board that plugs into the A500's side expansion.
It replicates the A500's side expansion, in which I have an ACA500plus and provides a Zorro II slot for the ZZ9000
And as soon as iComp opens purchasing for the ACA1234-50, I'm buying one to plug into the ACA500plus.

Same board also has ACE2b, Indivision ECS V2 and Lyra 3

What would be super fun...is to use the open sourced 'Bluster', which is a re-creation of the A2000 Buster Chip,

and modify the single slot Zorro II board, so it could have TWO Zorro II slots.

If only someone had the technical skills required
It's honestly more a limited market thing ... I suspect...

Though that cute little single slot Zorro II board costs $230 CDN delivered,

so there sure is plenty of profit per piece, if 'someone' was to make a two slot Zorro II version

<wink> <wink>

My A500 Zorro II board is working fine with the ACA500plus.

I have not got my ZZ9000 yet, so I can't comment on bugs,

although, the MNT Research (ZZ9000) people do have one, and test on it, and report it works fine on their forum.

If you search for the Checkmate 1500 case project, you will see that you can buy the little Zorro II board, without the case.

Rob Cranley also made "Z-500" boards that are a horizontal version.

**Pro tip**, do not buy the Checkmate Zorro II boards used...

The first ones are buggy...and I saw that they ran a trace right through the ground plane layer, which likely caused a load of signal reflections.

The new version, which I've bought, moved the traces that bisected the ground plane around the perimeter, so likely the signal integrity is much better now.

There could have been other issues too...it's not like anyone really stepped forward, admitted a design fault, described it, turned it on and off, and published a fix. It was just one of those "Hey Yall, the new ones not broken" kinda deals.

I hate to bring up the uncomfortable bit, but..

We're 'operating' 35 year old computers, that were design intent to operate for maybe 5 years, 10 at the outer limit.

All of them, and us, are out of spec...

I mean..I can't speak for you, but I look nothing like I did in my teens, I'm definitely 'out of spec' but still functioning, however glitchy, all within an acceptable range. Just like my Amiga

In spec, out of spec, it's all rather dubious, an artificial construct really, to help one man limit his obligations to another.

Certainly nothing to get excited about... as we are not using our Amiga's to fly to Mars... well I'm not...

I'm not asking for ACA500plus support, so I'm rather surprised were onto an in vs. out of spec. discussion.

Though I guess that's fair warning to the next fella.

"If you climb that tree, fall down and break both your legs, don't come running to me." ~ Jens

Quote from Jens

Those Checkmate boards were supposed to be fixed

I don't think they were 'fixed', they just made a new batch, with different routing, that 'appears' to work.

Certainly that doesn't fix the first ones they made

And I hope the new ones, like I have, are 'fixed', but being I am an engineer, I would have appreciated some basic information from them on what exactly was wrong, how they fixed it, and a basic turn it on, turn it off demonstration of the defect and the fix.

We got nothing like that of course ...

So, I turn on my carefully calibrated GDDR6, LPDDR5, DDR, laying out eyes, and what do I see ?

All the signal traces on one side of a two layer PCB, a ground pour on the other side, and in the first revision, they split the ground pour with a trace for the ATX PWR-Good signal. So everyone of those 8MHz system signals is going to have delay and reflection.

Then I see the new version of the PCB and they moved that trace out of the ground pour and around the outside.

Quote from Jens

didn't the vendor intend to describe what you need to do in order to make it "all work"? Last thing I heard was "I need to formalize this before it gets published".

"Intend" no idea...

Mind reading is not on my resume, but if he ever did explain how it was supposed to 'all work', I must have slept in that day.

If you ever stumble over the 'published' explanation, please feel free to post it, though I rather suspect it's in the bottom of a drawer, in a filing cabinet, in the mens lavatory with a sign on the door that reads 'beware of tiger', in the basement, with the lights out and the stair case removed. (Python)

I could be wrong, but I think the fix is, give me 65 pounds sterling plus shipping and it will work 'this' time, I promise.

Quote from Jens

I can't recommend using Zorro stuff in conjunction with the ACA500plus at all. The ACA500plus is developed for direct connection to the A500 main board ONLY.

If I fall down and break both my legs, I won't be running, I promise...

But when this works, it really is great fun and I wish you could come along and play with us.

Because Jens, you are a toy maker, you make wonderful toys, but that's what all this is...just toys...for having fun...

And I'm gonna put an ACA1234-50 and a ZZ9000 into my 'not recommended', "out of spec", "powered by a monkey with a dynamo", Checkmate 1500 case. And really ... that should just make you smile

Have a great day,

Quote from Jens

Really? Reminded me of Douglas Adams (His books were actually the reason why I was kicked out of class room some 35 years ago; I couldn't stop laughing).

Ohh.. you're right of course .. Hitchhikers Guide.. Douglas Adams.. not Python..

Quote from Jens

I don't have much good to say about the Checkmate case

- the paint looks 'pretty'

- it's made of mostly metal

- it's not 35 year old crumbling plastic

- it comes in black, so it doesn't clash with the night

- you can put your keyboard under it
- you can park your monitor on it

There's lots of good things to say... I'm just not sure they outweigh the bad..

But I'm gonna find out

It's just money

Quote from JohanSSID

The Checkmate case is for me a disaster.

Not as a confrontational challenge, but, could you please elaborate on the 'disastrous' elements ?

For sure Jens dislikes that it might encourage SFX form-factor (ATX) PSU's,

and the unbuffered Zorro II option board..

That sorta gets wrapped in his cloak of "nothing good to say"

From your disaster comment, I am 'feeling' from the 'tone & vibe' that you don't like the styling,

but this is a purely written medium, so I'm likely missing 90% of what you are 'really' meaning to say.

I guess in your use of the word, I'm asking for a little description of the extent of the carnage ?

Be 'graphic' some of us are into that sorta thing you know..

I like the A1200 cases and hope to see new A500 cases but every time I've open my wallet to buy...they have been unavailable.

Which to me means they don't exist, despite any evidence to the contrary.

Not much point 'believing' in something, when you are perpetually excluded from it.

It doesn't matter how many pictures people take of the Yeti, I'll never know his warm embrace

Starting to feel like this about C64c cases too, but I think the guy working on it will fix this soon...not naming any names

I hold less hope for the new C64 keycaps...

In my opinion...A500 or A1200 really seems to depend on which side of the pond you live on...

Here in Canada A1200's are quite a bit more rare...and crazy expensive.

So.. it's just going to be the situation that A500's will get chopped, lowered, slammed, tuned and blown-out,

which means that at some point you need a bigger box to carry all your pieces

They're just not gonna fit in the stock A500 case anymore.

I'll use my own A500 to illustrate.

The base A500 was $200 CDN, then I added ACE2b, Indivision ECS V2, ACA500plus, ZZ9000, Lyra 3, Micromys v5, Zorro II riser, Checkmate 1500 case, and waiting on Jens to let us buy his ACA1234-50.

Finished price $2675 CDN which is about the price of a stock, booting, A3000 around these parts
How in the world do I shoe-horn all that into a stock case ?

Don't say 'you don't', because I'm clearly trying to keep Jens in business here

Also, it's an 'American' past-time to 'hot-rod' things...never give us your car keys...

Europeans, I feel, have it a bit easier because their circumstances mean that they get to start with an A1200 which is not as needy a machine.

So perhaps, in the end, they don't 'need' the bigger box. The proverbial 'bucket' of fried chicken.

We're clearly beyond the scope of why I opened this thread,

but I think it's been really positive, and I'd love to know more your thoughts on the Checkmate 1500 'disaster', before we all wander off.